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Talk:Spearlady Gorse
Gender Why is it not all right to assume that Spear''lady'' Gorse was a female badger? Eowynjedi 02:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC) :The same way it's not all right to assume anyone named "Leslie", "Shannon" or "Courtney" is female? --LordTBT Talk! 04:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC) ::Yeah, but those are names that could be either--"lady" definitely implies feminity, and "Spearlady" sounds more like a title than a given name (though it may not be considering other names in the series). Eowynjedi 19:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC) She is a lady. Guy badgers aren't called "spearlady". She had a spear. You don't call a badger spearlady if she has a sword. I think that Brian Jacques made her a female badger.-- Bluestripe the Wild Eulaliiiaaa! 22:06, 26 June 2009 (UTC) I agree. If the badger's title specifically states that it was a "Lady", why not say that in the article? Brockfang Eeeee aye eeeeee 21:52, February 24, 2010 (UTC) :Unless the character is identified specifically as female or male, we don't know. -- LordTBT Talk! 22:01, February 24, 2010 (UTC) Personally, I believe Jacques would have wanted her to be a female. Snowstripe the Fierce (talk) 23:09, June 27, 2015 (UTC)Snowstripe the FierceSnowstripe the Fierce (talk) 23:09, June 27, 2015 (UTC) Restriction Why is that page blocked? I don't need to edit anything, but I was just wondering. Holly Werde Dorn Gewinne? 13:30, May 23, 2010 (UTC) :Delusional editors. -- LordTBT Talk! 18:40, June 2, 2010 (UTC) Uh, guys, she was a lady with a spear, hence the name. Someone ought to convince brian jacques to make a book about her or one of the other unknown rulers like Urthrun the Gripper. Ceteruler is mentioned in one of the books as Ceteruler the Hammer -Swiftclaw 10:20 June 2 2010 :Unless you'd like to cite a book page number for any of this fascinating information, nothing is going to change. -- LordTBT Talk! 18:40, June 2, 2010 (UTC) i'm sorry but does this really sound right to you " Lord Spearlady Gorse" does that in anyway sound right to you?Lord Sunflash May the wind be at your back, matey! :Doesn't change anything. -- LordTBT Talk! 03:27, October 3, 2010 (UTC) Not trying to push the subject, but I suppose putting speculations that she's a girl wouldn't work?-Selra, Fox Warrioress Decisions, decisions:to kill you or not? Good or bad? 07:37, October 3, 2010 (UTC) Correct, Segalia. --Lord Bluestripe Eulaliiiiiiaaa! 01:10, December 28, 2010 (UTC) Advice for free Now dont argue or answer just think about this. Would Brian Jacques have wanted us to assume and use our imaginations or would he want his series as a document as Spearlady gorses page is? Let a badger ruler rest in peace for brocks sake That is a good point; but if you want to further express your opinions, I suggest you get an account and make an essay or other blog post about this. Vilaya Don't tread on me! 02:15, December 10, 2011 (UTC)SalemtheCruel :This website documents characters as written. This doesn't mean, however, individuals cannot use their imaginations. -- LordTBT Talk! 02:29, December 10, 2011 (UTC) ::It seems to me that using a feminine title implies femininity. I mean, if someone was labelled "Queen", we'd be entitled to assume the character was female even if absolutely no other information was provided. Similarly, "Lady" - being a feminine title - entitles us to assume someone's female, there being no precedent in Redwall (to my knowledge) for queer/transgender characters who might be inclined to adopt a monicker not matching their sex. Spearlady is just a compound word, much like "Hammerlord" or something would be. Yes, granted, we don't get a sentence explicitly saying something like "Spearlady Gorse - who, let me just make this clear, is a female badger", but it seems like a feminine title allows us to justifiably assume a female character, even without further information - in point of fact, it takes a bigger leap to assume the character's male than female, and I think Occam's razor should be kept in mind here. Of course, it's not like my argument will change anything, but I feel it should be said. - d2r 20:46, December 10, 2011 (UTC) I know this conversation is over, for almost six months, but what if Spearlady does not imply lady, but lad, like a young boy? Spear could be a verb, and a pike or a sword can spear enemies. Hedgepaw sounds like a hedgehog, right? The Fivemole Burr Aye, Gurt Zurrs!! 23:17, May 7, 2012 (UTC) Apologies I meant no insult to your wiki i think its a good resource. I was just a bit angry there Minor edits There should not be a period after the Appears in: ----. The Fivemole Burr Aye, Gurt Zurrs!! 17:05, May 5, 2012 (UTC) Metioned in should have a colon after it. Also, Martin's Sword should link like Martin's Sword. Spearlady Gorse was a Salamandastron ruler prior to Lord Stonepaw. S/he was one of the great warriors named by Boar the Fighter when he reforged Martin's sword. Can you change this back now? The Fivemole Burr Aye, Gurt Zurrs!! 20:50, May 6, 2012 (UTC) Is anyone going to change this? Some of my unknown gender edits were not proper, but others like the period and Martin's Sword are. The Fivemole Burr Aye, Gurt Zurrs!! 23:08, May 7, 2012 (UTC) :I'm the only one who can, and it's going to stay the way it is for now. -- LordTBT Talk! 23:18, May 7, 2012 (UTC) Okay. The Fivemole Burr Aye, Gurt Zurrs!! 23:19, May 7, 2012 (UTC) Have you reconsidered changing it, or does my 'semi-punishment' stand? The Fivemole Burr Aye, Gurt Zurrs!! 00:50, May 17, 2012 (UTC) Some of the edits seemed reasonable. I would suggest doing the Martin's Sword setup, at least. The only reason I am still trying to have this page edited is because you said for now. If you want to keep this page the same forever, please notify me, so I may leave this page. The Fivemole Burr Aye, Gurt Zurrs!! 03:52, May 18, 2012 (UTC) References and a petition I remember reading about these Badger lords of the past, but never being able to find again where they were in the series when I'd looked for them. So, hoping that one of these pages would have the reference, I searched here and came across this article. Trying to be helpful, I was going to edit "S/he" to "She", but found the article locked, and this page showing an ongoing dispute. I've managed to find the references in Mossflower and Lord Brocktree (given below as a gesture of goodwill), but seeing an overwhelming consensus above blocked, I have decided to add a petition, hopefully reflecting what the above editors have said as well as my own convictions. A consensus should be allowed to be establish over time so this discussion should not be closed, and if you find yourself reading this page, whether in a minute or more than a year's time, please take the time to read the petition, and sign one way or the other. References Mossflower *U.K., Red Fox, 1990, ISBN 0 09 955400 3: **Chapter 37, section 3, paragraph 5; page 313. Salamandatron *U.K., Red Fox, 1993, ISBN 0 09 914361 5: **Chapter 13, section 9, paragraph 13; page 113. Lord Brocktree *U.K., Red Fox, 2001, ISBN 0 09 941119 9: **Chapter 1, paragraph 21; page 6. **Chapter 35, section 8, paragraph 1; page 348. Petition As per Community Central:Ownership, wikis are owned by their community, and as such the consensus of the community should decide the article contents and policies. I think that Spearlady Gorse is clearly a female character, and so should be represented as such in the article. If this contradicts any policies (whether written or unwritten), these policies should be changed to reflect common sense and community consensus. If you agree or disagree with this, please sign below. Many thanks. --xensyriaT 15:28, June 2, 2012 (UTC) For #'Support' --xensyriaT 15:28, June 2, 2012 (UTC) # --Lord Bluestripe Eulaliiiiiiaaa! 17:15, June 2, 2012 (UTC) # --Cryogenos the Wolf 15:17, June 4, 2012 (UTC) About time Spearlady Gorse got the right gender written down for her. :P Bartholomew Billberry Bowstring (talk) 06:52, February 6, 2014 (UTC) 4. I support This!! FOOOOORR! --Ferrets and vermin are two different things! (talk) 06:30, January 1, 2014 (UTC)Burglebuber Against I do not agree. See my reasons in Advice for free. The Fivemole Burr Aye, Gurt Zurrs!! 16:59, June 2, 2012 (UTC) :Unfortunately, what you "think" about a certain character doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what is stated in the books, per our common sense guidelines. I could think that Martin the Warrior decides to dye his fur purple, grow wings and fight baddies with a spoon. The book never says he does any of that, so it doesn't go in the article. -- LordTBT Talk! 18:25, June 2, 2012 (UTC) ::We can all give our readings of what's stated in the same text—let's see how the consensus emerges. Will you accept a consensus that differs from your opinion? I've also found another reference to Gorse in Salamandastron (added above); I'd appreciate it if you incorporated it into the article too while it's locked. --xensyriaT 21:33, June 2, 2012 (UTC) :::I would urge you to once again read our guidelines. Our job is not to "read" into the text, or "interpret" the text, only report what the text states. My opinion means nothing. Your opinion means nothing. Genders and character species must be clearly stated, not assumed. If anything you have cited indicates 100% the gender of this character to be female, than I am more than happy to adjust it as necessary. Your discovery disproves your point, as Spearlady is mentioned in Salamandastron to be a "Badger Lord". Thanks for pointing this out. -- LordTBT Talk! 03:46, June 3, 2012 (UTC) ::Glad to clear that up for you—the example you give perfectly demonstrates what I mean by "reading" (which is the unavoidable participation of all readers). Here you read "Badger Lord" as a masculine term and "Spearlady" as gender neutral (but haven't edited the article as you know it's obviously not what the author meant); we read "Spearlady" as a feminine title (and probably wouldn't have any trouble if "Badger Lord" covered her role as well, though in fact the quote only states that the record and history of Salamandastron and its badger Lords was carved all around the walls, and that "Brocktree, Spearlady Gorse, Bluestripe the Wild, Ceteruler the Wise, Boar the Fighter, Sunstripe the Mace... were all there"; if nothing is taken for granted these words may not be the names of characters at all—a reading more minimalist than your own). This page shows what different editors deem to be "directly stated" in this case, which is interesting but not a problem unless you use your admin rights to force your reading (and it is a reading) over and above those of the rest of us. --xensyriaT 23:41, June 9, 2012 (UTC) :::Wrong, wrong, wrong. Perhaps "reading" is the "unavoidable participation" of yourself, you seem to have a habit of overgeneralizing. Don't apply your personal traits to that of everyone. All names are gender neutral unless applied a specific modifier; "Spearlady" is not a 'title' - it's a name. "Lord" is in fact an undeniable masculine title. Unless you can find a sentence which reads something like "The badger ruler Spearlady, who used a spear in her battles" - the character has no known gender or weapon, with Salamandastron being the only novel to use any sort of modifier. -- LordTBT Talk! 07:08, June 10, 2012 (UTC) I disagree. I agree with TBT's logic, and I believe the petition stems from the awkwardness of knowing a badger male named Spearlady. Malurax the Assassin Killing is my thing, with all those toxins. 07:13, August 1, 2012 (UTC) While the gender can be argued. Is it not possible that "Spearlady" is the character's title? Considering all other ancient rulers of Salamandsatron had some sort of title (Urthrun The Gripper, Bluestripe The Wild, Ceteruler The Just) I would think that he would keep with that theme since they were a single list and probably made on the same thought. It just seems more likely that it is a title rather than his or her name, especially considering how odd it would sound in comparison to other badger lords who, while sometimes having relations to their choice of weapons, never indicate their gender. I feel this is the same case. Corbus May The Wind Be At Your Back, Matey 00:52, December 8, 2012 (UTC) :This would be reading into the text. -- LordTBT Talk! 03:16, December 8, 2012 (UTC) Yes but it is not something really that has much room for different interpretations. It may as well be stating this is a woman. But I guess with that we can say that Bluestripe the wild may have neither been blue in any shape or form, and is neither wild in any way at all. or that Urthrun The Gripper had some weak paws. It just doesn't make any sense any other way really. Corbus May The Wind Be At Your Back, Matey 03:05, December 24, 2012 (UTC) Fivemole's Argument That's actually not possible. "Spearlady" would not be as in a lad or young boy. Laddie or laddo or lad are the only spellings for the term. "Lady" is never used to mean a "laddie". A bit unrelated, though, is the possibility that this name is similar in structure to names like "Johnson", which would sound masculine-only at first ("son of John"); but truth be told, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of females and males have borne this surname. In a like manner, Spearlady would fit either male or female. Thus, from a certain logic, this name is not gender-specific. (Tuûr!) Snowstripe's Thoughts I agree with LordTBT here. Brian Jacques never simply put that the character was a girl, so we can't assume that's what he meant. For all we know, the character's build was comparable to a female badger, so they called him Lady as a joke. A hedgehog in The Bellmaker was called "father" when it was a girl, so this could apply to Spearlady Gorse. Remember, we can always make fanfiction on the character, so whatever you think can go into it. I'm in the process of one right now. Bottom line is, not proven, not fact. Thank you. --You're always welcome at my mountain. [[file:Defenders.jpg]] (talk) 16:38, July 12, 2015 (UTC)